2011-01-04 02:08:50 note card
Meeting Summary: Magistrates Course - Class 4 (Homework Review & Trial Procedures)
Instructor: Janette Inglewood
Participants:
Sherman Easterwood
Dezire Sciarri
Kylie Sabra
Candaris Randt
Meeting Summary:
Janette Inglewood began the third Magistrates class by reviewing the previous homework assignment, which involved a scenario where a Free Woman was "feeding larma" to a Man they weren't FC'ed (Flesh-Caste'ed) with, and the Man subsequently collared her without a Magistrate present.
Homework Review Discussion:
Offenses Committed: Janette stated that both the Free Woman (for acting in a slavish manner and open flirtation) and the Man (for collaring without a Magistrate) committed offenses. The Slaver in the scenario committed no offense.
No Trial Needed: Given the clear events, Janette felt a formal trial wasn't necessary for this specific case.
Appropriate Punishment: A collar was deemed appropriate for the Free Woman, but not necessarily permanent. Janette suggested collaring her to the city for a month, with release only if she and the Man then formally FC (Flesh-Caste). This solution was seen as "cute" and would also impact the Man, assuming he loved her.
Participant Defenses/Opinions:
Sherman Easterwood: Proposed a defense arguing the "larma" feeding wasn't the traditional "honey-glazed" serving, and therefore not a complete "serving" act, to lessen the "slavish" behavior. Janette acknowledged it as a "worth a try" defense but still found the woman guilty due to her flirtatiousness.
Dezire Sciarri: Wondered if the Free Woman actually "sought" the collar given her suggestive actions, implying a city collar might be better than collaring her directly to the Man, especially if the city doesn't have city slaves (like Landa).
Candaris Randt: Pointed out that the specific quote provided by Dezire about larma feeding does not mention honey, supporting the idea that the "honey-glazed" argument might not be a valid defense based on that specific text. Candaris also argued that giving the woman to the Man would be a "reward" for him breaking the law (by collaring without a Magistrate) and that the punishment should affect him too, thus supporting the city collar option.
Kylie Sabra: Initially agreed with collaring her to the city, but then suggested she be collared directly to the Man, making it his choice to free or FC her, implying the Man didn't break a law by merely behaving as he wished.
Man's Offense: Janette clarified a crucial point of Gorean law: a Free Woman can only be collared in her home city by due process of a Magistrate. A Man cannot simply collar a Free Woman in her home city unless she is captured outside of it or is a traveling Free Woman.
Trial Procedures Discussion:
Biggest Practical Problem: The most significant challenge in holding a trial is finding a time when all involved parties (accused, accuser, witnesses, advocates) can be present. Janette advised OOC communication to coordinate schedules.
Depositions: If attendance is impossible, written depositions, ideally witnessed by a scribe and sealed, can be used as evidence, though their authenticity must be ensured.
Conducting the Trial:
No Fixed Structure in Books: Norman (the author) provides no specific examples of trial procedures, leaving it up to the Magistrate. Jurors are mentioned but not used by Janette, due to a reference about them being bribed.
Initial Ground Rules: Janette sets clear rules at the start: emotes are considered spoken, disruptions from the gallery lead to removal/arrest, all participants speak "for their Homestone" (lies are grievous), and all must agree to abide by the court's findings.
Trial Flow:
Prosecution opening statement and charges.
Defense opening statement.
Prosecution calls witnesses (cross-examined by defense).
Defense calls witnesses (cross-examined by prosecution).
Closing statements (prosecution first).
Judgment (Magistrate explains reasons).
Tips for Advocates (and Magistrates): Do not annoy the Magistrate by preaching law, repeating, interrupting, or taking too long. Objections are allowed but must be worthwhile.
Maintaining Control: Magistrates must maintain a firm hand, nip problems in the bud, and be prepared for unpopular decisions or disruptions (fights, threats) that should not sway the judgment.
Jury System: Dezire asked about using a jury to deflect criticism. Janette suspected it would lead to a "never-ending trial" and preferred Magistrates to take criticism themselves, as she has never used or seen a jury used effectively in SL.
Next Steps:
No homework for the current week.
Next week's class will cover sentencing and how it works in SL.
A piece of coursework will be assigned related to sentencing.
A trial will be held later in the course to put concepts into practice.
Janette will send out the transcript for this class.
[17:05] janette Inglewood: id like to begin by discussing the homework assignment
[17:06] janette Inglewood: i had a variety of responses....every option you can imagine really
[17:07] janette Inglewood: so.....lets consider it
[17:07] janette Inglewood: You arrive on the scene
[17:07] janette Inglewood: the first considerations are of course......
[17:07] janette Inglewood: it is IC
[17:08] janette Inglewood: it is your jurisdiction
[17:08] janette Inglewood: there is a crime
[17:08] janette Inglewood: there are witnesses
[17:08] janette Inglewood: so conditions all point to you needing to make a judgement
[17:09] janette Inglewood: now..the Slaver has not committed an offence
[17:09] janette Inglewood: the fw has been feeding larma to the Man....and they are not FC'ed
[17:10] janette Inglewood: and we are told this isnt the first example
[17:10] janette Inglewood: however.....the Man should not be collaring anyone without the Magistrate present
[17:10] janette Inglewood: despite the Slaver waving a collar about
[17:11] Sherman Easterwood listens to explanation
[17:11] janette Inglewood: so.....both He and the fw have committed offences
[17:12] janette Inglewood: i dont really see the need for a trial here....we can see all the events quite clearly
[17:12] janette Inglewood: she has definately been acting in a slavish manner
[17:13] janette Inglewood: therefore....a collar is appropriate.....maybe not permanent
[17:13] janette Inglewood: and we assume the Man is in love with her
[17:14] janette Inglewood: so collaring her to thecity for amonth for example...would hurt Him too
[17:15] janette Inglewood: theere are many sentencing options really....my main point in this was seeing that you considered the right things
[17:15] janette Inglewood: we will look more closely at sentencing next week
[17:16] janette Inglewood: bit i rather like....collar her to he city for a month....then she may be released only if they FC
[17:16] janette Inglewood: and...that contract must be seen through
[17:17] janette Inglewood: its a rather cute solution.....but not the only one
[17:17] janette Inglewood: any thoughts or questions?
[17:17] Sherman Easterwood: @
[17:17] Dezire Sciarri: @
[17:17] janette Inglewood: Sherman?
[17:19] Sherman Easterwood: IAfter completing the assignment I started thinking as an advocate and thought if there was a trail maybe a defense though not a good one could be based on trying to show that the larma was not honey glazed and that the tradition was of a serving larma and that a serve was much more complicated that just feeding
[17:19] janette Inglewood: well yes........but she was still openly flirtatious
[17:20] Sherman Easterwood: the larma and therefore no serving of the larma actually took place ....
[17:20] janette Inglewood: yes......i dont think it would get her off...but it would be worth a try in a trial
[17:20] Sherman Easterwood: aye but the feeding was a simple placement of food in the mouth
[17:20] janette Inglewood: i think Your point in your essay of collaring her to him was pretty good
[17:21] Sherman Easterwood: only way I could think of defending her
[17:21] janette Inglewood: yes...not easy
[17:21] Sherman Easterwood: thank you
[17:21] janette Inglewood: you could also say they were to be fc'ed anyway as a defence
[17:22] janette Inglewood: but...i would find her guilty
[17:22] janette Inglewood: Dezire?
[17:23] Dezire Sciarri: I also wondered about it after I send in the home work, but differently then Sherman, I was wondring if she did not actually seek the collar, all her previous actions have been so suggestive
[17:23] Dezire Sciarri growls at Sherman
[17:24] Kylie Sabra: @
[17:24] janette Inglewood: yes it is possible.....thats why some time in a city collar may be appropriate
[17:24] janette Inglewood: she might think being collared to Marcus was a good thing
[17:24] Kylie Sabra: Lowers hand
[17:24] janette Inglewood: Kylie?
[17:24] Kylie Sabra: I changed my mind.
[17:24] janette Inglewood: oh...chuckles...did we cover it?
[17:24] Candaris Randt: @
[17:25] Kylie Sabra: Aii
[17:25] janette Inglewood: Candaris?
[17:25] Candaris Randt: I have a point about the larma and honey....
[17:25] Candaris Randt: this quote says nothing about honey, so its not a valid defense
[17:25] Candaris Randt: There is, first, the bondage knot. Most Gorean slave girls have long hair. The bondage knot is a simple looped knot tied in the girl's hair and worn at the side of her right cheek or before her right shoulder. The girl approaches the master naked and kneels, the bondage knot soft, curled, fallen at the side of her right cheek or before her right shoulder. Another device, common in Port Kar, is for the girl to kneel before the master and put her head down and lift her arms, offering him fruit, usually a larma, or a yellow Gorean peach, ripe and fresh. These devices, incidentally, may be used even by a slave girl who hates her master but whose body, trained to love, cannot endure the absence of the masculine caress.
~Tribesman of Gor, pages 27 & 28~
[17:25] janette Inglewood: yes Dezire used that quote in her answer
[17:26] Dezire Sciarri: thats why I wondered if she did not actually seek the collar
[17:26] Kylie Sabra: @
[17:27] janette Inglewood: yes
[17:27] Candaris Randt nods, oh I agree
[17:27] janette Inglewood: Kylie?
[17:27] Kylie Sabra: And given that she may have sought the collar....
[17:27] Kylie Sabra: And that he may indeed want her hence the flirting. To collar her to the city would hurt him as well...
[17:28] Kylie Sabra: I agree that sheshould have been collared to him and then it be his choice whether to free her and FC her.
[17:28] Dezire Sciarri: @
[17:28] Candaris Randt: @
[17:28] janette Inglewood: Dezire?
[17:29] Dezire Sciarri: not all cities have city slaves.. Landa for instance does not.. therefor if he collars her, she would be his slave
[17:29] janette Inglewood: i see
[17:29] Dezire Sciarri: or he could hand her to the slaver
[17:29] janette Inglewood: Candaris?
[17:29] Candaris Randt: He broke the law, the punishment should hurt him as well, in my opinion.
[17:29] Candaris Randt: Giving her to him, would be a reward for breaking the law.
[17:30] janette Inglewood: yes i agree, which is why id use the city option...if there is one
[17:30] Kylie Sabra: @
[17:30] janette Inglewood: anyway.....i think we all see the issues in this
[17:30] janette Inglewood: Kylie?
[17:30] Sherman Easterwood nods
[17:30] Kylie Sabra: Indeed. Did he break a law? A man may behave as he wishes...
[17:30] Dezire Sciarri smiles
[17:31] Kylie Sabra: Short of kiling another or stealing property. The onous is upon the female to behave.
[17:31] Kylie Sabra: Kind of like RL.
[17:31] janette Inglewood: no...btb...a Lady can only be collared in her Home city...by due process of a Magistrate
[17:31] Dezire Sciarri nods
[17:31] janette Inglewood: it is not up to amn just to go collaring FW
[17:32] janette Inglewood: *Man
[17:32] janette Inglewood: not legally anyway
[17:33] janette Inglewood: when capturing...in another city...or a travelling FW...THEN YES
[17:33] janette Inglewood: but in her own city....the books are clear
[17:34] janette Inglewood: any more queries on this?
[17:34] janette Inglewood: right then...lets move on
[17:35] janette Inglewood: i want to talk about trials
[17:36] janette Inglewood: now..lets assume we are having a trial..what the biggest problem we will have?
[17:36] Dezire Sciarri: @
[17:36] janette Inglewood: Dezire?
[17:37] Dezire Sciarri: we need to make sure all the witnesses have been questioned first
[17:37] janette Inglewood: yes...but what is the practical problem we will face?
[17:37] Kylie Sabra: @
[17:37] Kylie Sabra: Finding a time where all involved can appear.
[17:37] janette Inglewood: Kylie?
[17:38] janette Inglewood: exactly
[17:38] janette Inglewood: this is the big issue
[17:38] janette Inglewood: dont be afraid to talk to people ooc'ly and get a time that is going to work for everyone
[17:39] janette Inglewood: its never easy...hopefully they can make the effort....seeing the rp as fun
[17:39] janette Inglewood: ok...so lets say we find a time
[17:39] janette Inglewood: and..in an ideal world we have advocates
[17:40] Kylie Sabra: @
[17:40] janette Inglewood: oh by the way....you can always ask for advocates in my law groups
[17:40] janette Inglewood: Kylie?
[17:40] Kylie Sabra: Can we use depositions that have been taken and then use them in trial?
[17:41] janette Inglewood: yes if we have no choice
[17:41] janette Inglewood: obviously you need to sure you trust they are authentic
[17:41] janette Inglewood: but i agree...sometimes we have to
[17:41] Kylie Sabra: Generally depositions are witenssed. So perhaps before a scribe and then sealed with scribes seal.
[17:42] janette Inglewood: now..if you dont have advocates...you will be doing the questioning.....but lets assume you do
[17:42] janette Inglewood: yes Kylie. i agree
[17:42] janette Inglewood: the way you conduct the trial is really up to you
[17:43] janette Inglewood: Norman gives us no book example
[17:43] janette Inglewood: He does refer to jurors...but i dont use them
[17:43] janette Inglewood: the only ref he makes is about them being bribed
[17:44] janette Inglewood: i make itclear at the start how things will go
[17:44] janette Inglewood: and i mention these points.....
[17:44] janette Inglewood: all emotes are in effect spoken
[17:45] janette Inglewood: too many comments from the gallery and they will be removed...or even arrested
[17:45] janette Inglewood: that we are speaking for our Homestone....and as such..lies are a grievous crime
[17:46] janette Inglewood: and i usually check...all are willing to abide by the findngs of the court
[17:47] janette Inglewood: then i have the prosecution openening statement and charges
[17:47] janette Inglewood: and then the defence opening statement
[17:47] janette Inglewood: the prosecution can then begin calling witnesses....each one being cross examined by defence
[17:48] janette Inglewood: then the defence...who may call witnesses not already called...and they can be cross examined of course
[17:48] janette Inglewood: then closing statements...prosecution first
[17:49] janette Inglewood: and finally the judgement
[17:49] janette Inglewood: i try to explain my reasons.....and make it understandable
[17:49] janette Inglewood: and i thank all who took part
[17:50] janette Inglewood: as i always preach on the advocates course....do not annoy the Magistrate
[17:50] janette Inglewood: dont preach law at me...dont keep repeating yourself...or interrupting
[17:51] janette Inglewood: dont take ages....it takes long enough as it is
[17:51] janette Inglewood: yes you can make an objection....but makes sure it is worthwhile
[17:52] Kylie Sabra: Whispers. "I have to leave to officiate FC ceremony."
[17:52] janette Inglewood: i can get very grumpy with a smart-ass advocate
[17:52] janette Inglewood: ooh im going to attend that
[17:53] janette Inglewood: and finally...it is your court...keep a firm hand on it
[17:54] janette Inglewood: things can quickly get out of hand...so nip it in the bud
[17:54] janette Inglewood: you may be making an unpopular decision
[17:54] janette Inglewood: ive seen fights erupt...and thereats to me and all sorts
[17:55] janette Inglewood: it wont sway me though...i call it as i see it
[17:55] janette Inglewood: it is our duty to do that
[17:55] janette Inglewood: any questions about trial procedures?
[17:56] Dezire Sciarri: @
[17:56] janette Inglewood: we will be doing one later in the course
[17:56] janette Inglewood: Dezire?
[17:56] Dezire Sciarri: if you chose a jury, could that defer the griping? or would it only be a never ending trial?
[17:57] janette Inglewood: personally i suspect the latter
[17:57] Dezire Sciarri nods.. "thank you, I thought so"
[17:57] janette Inglewood: i think it is better to take the criticism yourself...as i said i have never actually done it....nor seen it done
[17:58] janette Inglewood: now then...no homework this week
[17:58] janette Inglewood: next week the class is on sentencing and how that works on sl
[17:59] janette Inglewood: there is a piece of coursework on that
[17:59] janette Inglewood: then we shallhold a trial.....and put a few things into practice
[18:00] janette Inglewood: incredibly we are lready half way through
[18:00] janette Inglewood: thank You for You input..and be well til next time
[18:00] janette Inglewood: oh and happy new year
[18:01] janette Inglewood: ill send the scroll out in group for this class as usuaul
[18:01] Candaris Randt: Thank you, you too Lady Jan. Be well all.
[18:01] Dezire Sciarri smiles... Happy New Year Lady Janette.. and thank you .
[18:01] janette Inglewood: be well all
[18:01] Sherman Easterwood: Happy new year thank you I must run
[18:01] Sherman Easterwood: safe paths all
[18:01] Dezire Sciarri: be well and be safe..
[18:01] Dezire Sciarri: excuse us please..
[18:02] janette Inglewood: You too
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