2011-03-15 01:07:32 note card
Meeting Summary: Magistrates Course - Class 2 (OOC/IC Distinction)
Instructor: Janette Inglewood
Participants:
Roi Bingyi
Wicked Vintner
Wanaki Anton
Devon Slacker (joined late)
Meeting Summary:
Janette Inglewood led the second Magistrates class, focusing on the crucial distinction between Out Of Character (OOC) and In Character (IC) elements within the context of Second Life (SL) Gorean roleplay. She highlighted that this distinction, while an SL-specific issue, is vital for proper legal proceedings.
Key Points and Discussions:
Rules vs. Laws: In well-organized sims, OOC issues (like griefing) are handled by moderators based on sim rules, while IC issues (like murder) are dealt with by Magistrates based on Gorean laws. Janette, holding both roles in Olni, finds this dual responsibility helpful.
Identifying OOC Elements: Participants identified common OOC elements that can muddle IC cases:
Information from profiles (groups, picks, comments)
Private Instant Messages (IMs)
Taking pictures during IC scenes (can be OOC)
Name tags and meter labels (unless explicitly stated IC)
Group tags
Teleporting in or out of scenes inappropriately
OOC Motives and Backstories: Janette warned about OOC motives or backstories (often involving "spurned lovers" or past grievances from other platforms like IMVU) that can drive IC actions. While hard to prove, Magistrates must be aware of and try to eliminate these OOC influences.
Chat Logs as Evidence: Open chat logs can be useful in investigations as they represent shared conversations, but they are generally not allowed as court evidence due to the possibility of alteration and the lack of IC means to verify their accuracy. Witness testimony given in person is considered far more valid.
Pictures on Warrants: Janette occasionally allows a "picture" (like an artist's sketch) on a warrant if a witness provides a strong, credible IC description of a suspect. However, a direct picture of the crime being committed is invalid.
Case Example: Panther-Girl Robbery: A scenario involving a slave reporting a "panther-girl called Elsa" robbing a Free Woman demonstrated the need to question witnesses rigorously to establish IC facts. Elements like the "tribe name," "location," and even the "panther-girl" identity or the "rings" could be OOC assumptions based on tags.
Treason Case Example: Janette shared a personal case where a Free Woman was accused of treason by Warriors she had rescued, possibly due to their embarrassment. She emphasized the importance of examining the motive for any OOC reasons, concluding that the Warrior's "ashamedness" was an IC motive, allowing the case to be treated seriously and resulting in the woman's acquittal.
Handling OOC Testimony in Trials: If OOC facts are presented as testimony in court, Magistrates should explicitly state that the comment is "struck from the records." Repeated OOC testimony warrants dismissal from the stand.
RP Limits: This "tricky area" refers to OOC stipulations players set (e.g., "no capping," "no unnecessary death," or explicit sexual content). While OOC, Janette suggested a common-sense approach:
Ludicrous limits that contradict Gorean RP (like "no capping") indicate the player is in the wrong sim.
For sensitive content, players can "fade to black" (accepting it happened to their character without actively roleplaying the explicit details) without pressure. Magistrates should respect these choices and accept that the event occurred IC.
The class ended with Janette reminding participants about the Advocates class the following day and the next Magistrates class next week, promising homework for the next session.
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[17:04] janette Inglewood: Tal All....welcome to the second Magistrate class
[17:05] janette Inglewood: today i want to talk about that old chestnut.....OOC/IC
[17:06] janette Inglewood: of course it is a Sl issue rather than gorean.....but it is wery important to be aware of
[17:06] Roi Bingyi nods
[17:06] janette Inglewood: in a well organised Sim .....rules are ooc and laws are ic
[17:07] janette Inglewood: so.....griefing is ooc....murder is ic
[17:08] janette Inglewood: here in Olni im a moderator so i deal with ooc issues in that role and of course ic laws as a Magistrate
[17:08] janette Inglewood: it is handy to have both roles
[17:08] janette Inglewood: sadly too many good ic cases get clouded with ooc nonsense
[17:09] janette Inglewood: can you tell me some obvious ooc things?
[17:09] Wicked Vintner: @
[17:10] Wanaki Anton: @
[17:10] janette Inglewood: Wicked?
[17:10] Wicked Vintner: anything in their profile could be
[17:10] janette Inglewood: yes.....groups...picks.....comments
[17:10] janette Inglewood: Elena?
[17:10] Wanaki Anton: Private IM
[17:10] janette Inglewood: yes
[17:11] janette Inglewood: any more?
[17:11] Wanaki Anton: @
[17:11] janette Inglewood: Elena?
[17:11] Wanaki Anton: like taking picture during IC
[17:11] janette Inglewood: it can be
[17:12] Roi Bingyi: @
[17:12] janette Inglewood: other ones...are name tags....
[17:12] janette Inglewood: Roi?
[17:12] Roi Bingyi: Teleporting when you are not at the proper location in or out
[17:12] janette Inglewood: yes
[17:13] Wicked Vintner: @
[17:13] janette Inglewood: Wicked?
[17:13] Wicked Vintner: name tags can be OOC but in the case of me, for instance, my OOC name is my IC name. So unless I have told them, its OOC as well
[17:14] janette Inglewood: well yes...but just reading them and then assuming you know the name is ooc
[17:14] janette Inglewood: also meter labels
[17:14] janette Inglewood: group tags
[17:14] janette Inglewood: unless i say...Tal i am Janette, High Magistrate of Olni...then You shouldnt know it
[17:15] janette Inglewood: there can also be ooc motives in a crime
[17:15] janette Inglewood: or the back story is ooc
[17:16] janette Inglewood: nearly always involving a spurned lover
[17:16] janette Inglewood: i did a case once that actually started on imvu Gor apparently
[17:17] Wanaki Anton: 0,o
[17:17] Wicked Vintner: interesting
[17:17] janette Inglewood: where she left and came to sl.....and he followed and found her
[17:17] janette Inglewood: i really wasnt sure if that was ooc or not
[17:17] Roi Bingyi: Stalking
[17:17] Wanaki Anton: roll her eyes
[17:18] janette Inglewood: so anyway....you need to be very aware and careful of it
[17:18] janette Inglewood: evidence that is ooc...could lead to the defendent or defence council calling a mistrial
[17:19] janette Inglewood: chat logs are by and large ooc......but...if they are of open chat....they can be very useful
[17:20] Wanaki Anton: nods
[17:20] janette Inglewood: after all....they can constitute a shared conversation
[17:20] Wicked Vintner: @
[17:20] janette Inglewood: Wicked?
[17:21] Wicked Vintner: true, but how can one come up with a reason for a perfectly accurate word for word account of somethign that was said. And how can you be sure it wasnt altered
[17:21] janette Inglewood: well your second point first.....you cannot be sure
[17:21] janette Inglewood: i have seen very dodgy ones
[17:21] janette Inglewood: you can check them closely...but some people are very sneaky
[17:22] janette Inglewood: they are most useful when you have more than one of the same incident
[17:23] janette Inglewood: regarding your first point...i would not allow them as court evidence
[17:23] janette Inglewood: they are handy in an investigation...no more than that
[17:23] janette Inglewood: not a reason to convict
[17:24] janette Inglewood: certainly..the testimony of a witness to you in person is far more valid
[17:25] janette Inglewood: and.....if they give you a good description of the person.....and it is credible that they could have had a good view of the suspect.....i will occasionally use a picture on a warrant
[17:26] janette Inglewood: again.....handled with care
[17:26] Wicked Vintner: @
[17:26] janette Inglewood: a picture of them doing the crime is most certainly invalid
[17:26] janette Inglewood: Wicked?
[17:26] Wicked Vintner: would a artist be called to take the decription and do up a sketch?
[17:26] janette Inglewood: yes
[17:27] janette Inglewood: if there was a really stong precedent for them being able to describe the person
[17:27] Wicked Vintner: nice
[17:29] janette Inglewood: alright so....a slave comes to you and says she just saw a panther-girl called elsa attack a fw.....the girls robbed her of her rings and fled back to her tribe....the ka-kitty.....who live in the ka forest
[17:30] janette Inglewood: what of that is most likely ooc?
[17:30] Wicked Vintner: @
[17:30] janette Inglewood: Wicked
[17:30] Wicked Vintner: that they fled back to their tribe... and the name of that tribe and where they live
[17:30] janette Inglewood: yes indeed most likely to be ooc
[17:31] janette Inglewood: maybe the panther girl's name also
[17:31] janette Inglewood: maybe even that she took rings
[17:31] Wicked Vintner: or was even a panther
[17:32] janette Inglewood: you have to question the witness.....yes indeed.....and establish all of this ic'ly
[17:32] janette Inglewood: and ask how they know each fact
[17:32] janette Inglewood: not only for the sake of good rp...but also for the sake of a correct case
[17:33] janette Inglewood: sl throws up many things ooc'ly
[17:33] janette Inglewood: any questions?
[17:33] Wanaki Anton: no
[17:33] Roi Bingyi: Nay
[17:35] janette Inglewood: as i said with the imvu carry over.....you need to check the motive is also ic
[17:35] janette Inglewood: or at least eliminate the ooc parts
[17:35] janette Inglewood: i just had a treason case here
[17:36] janette Inglewood: and i knew why the charge had been levelled
[17:36] janette Inglewood: basically a fw rescued some Warriors
[17:36] janette Inglewood lowers her voice
[17:36] janette Inglewood: and they were embarrassed about it
[17:37] janette Inglewood: next thing one of them accuses the woman of treason for getting them caught in the first place
[17:37] janette Inglewood: before i ruled on it.....i looked very closely for any ooc reason for that man to make such a claim
[17:38] janette Inglewood: after all motive is the key to most crime
[17:39] janette Inglewood: i concluded it was their ashamedness...rather than any previous ooc nonsense
[17:39] janette Inglewood: so i treated the case seriously
[17:39] janette Inglewood: and found the woman innocent
[17:40] janette Inglewood: with regard to trials themselves.....if an ooc fact is given as testimony....clearly state that the comment be struck fromthe records
[17:41] janette Inglewood: and if someone keeps doing it...then you will have to tell them that this is not worthwhile testimony and to leave the stand
[17:42] janette Inglewood: the final subject to consider is rp limits
[17:42] janette Inglewood: now this is a tricky area
[17:43] janette Inglewood: anyone have rp limits here?
[17:43] Wanaki Anton: nods
[17:43] Devon Slacker: no
[17:43] Roi Bingyi: Just keep it realistic
[17:43] janette Inglewood: yes...mine is no non rp/unecessary death
[17:44] janette Inglewood: but i would also include the grossest sexual things which i find not necessary to state
[17:44] janette Inglewood: rape on Gor of course happens....fair enough
[17:45] janette Inglewood: so...how a sim...or you as a Magistrate treat these limits requires common sense
[17:45] janette Inglewood: i have seen ludicrous ones......no capping.....sort of thing
[17:46] janette Inglewood: well frankly why are you in Gor then
[17:47] janette Inglewood: since these are ooc......they need to be treated as such.....but if someone tp's out of something gross..and they have stated why...and said it is in theor limits....then fair enough i say
[17:47] Wicked Vintner: @
[17:47] janette Inglewood: Wicked?
[17:48] Wicked Vintner: they could also just "fade to black" and not participate in the situation, without having to say it enver happened. Its an option at least
[17:48] janette Inglewood: yes i agree.....and i think that is prefectly reasonable
[17:48] Roi Bingyi: @
[17:48] janette Inglewood: you accept it happened to your character without actually participating
[17:49] janette Inglewood: Roi?
[17:49] Roi Bingyi: As far as rape is concerned it can be RPed, "I rapped this person" is sufficient without going through the motions
[17:50] janette Inglewood: yes i agree
[17:50] janette Inglewood: and i think that in any ic case...this should just be accepted as having occoured
[17:50] Roi Bingyi: Aye
[17:51] janette Inglewood: that should be a chioce and no pressure put on
[17:51] janette Inglewood: once i was capped and carried over the wall
[17:51] janette Inglewood: my captor was lovely.....chuckles
[17:52] janette Inglewood: i was thinking hmmmm,,,,,i wonder what is going to happen
[17:52] Roi Bingyi chuckles
[17:52] janette Inglewood: and trying to decide what my stance would be
[17:52] janette Inglewood: i ended up in a hideous bloodstained wagon
[17:53] janette Inglewood: and was feeling disappointed that it was going to be yukky and id have to "fade to black"
[17:53] janette Inglewood: when the whole thing got invalidated....and they said...go home
[17:54] janette Inglewood: its the nearest i have come to such a situation....luckily
[17:54] janette Inglewood: but it taught me you have to respect the right of the victim...but that they in turn must rp it through
[17:55] janette Inglewood: and i think the Magistrate must respect this
[17:55] Wicked Vintner: @
[17:55] janette Inglewood: right...i think that covers the issue....any questions?
[17:55] Roi Bingyi: @
[17:55] janette Inglewood: Wicked?
[17:57] Wicked Vintner: just a wuick one about differeing laws. I came qacross a situation where a personal matter between two men escalated and they were attacking each other. Though it was outside city walls. At one point does a personal issue get tossed aside for them to handle themselves?
[17:57] janette Inglewood: was the personal issue ic?
[17:57] Wicked Vintner: yes
[17:57] Wicked Vintner: one mane.....
[17:58] Wicked Vintner: went poking around in a tortureres camp and got attacked. ......
[17:58] Wicked Vintner: he got upset that a man he had met once before didnt just let him walk around exploring
[17:58] Wicked Vintner: he retaliated by burning the wagon down days later
[17:58] janette Inglewood: yes...that sounds like it is best settled by steel
[17:59] Wicked Vintner: Then I was perfectly fine telling the Regent of the city it wasnt her concern
[17:59] janette Inglewood: yes id agree with that
[18:00] Roi Bingyi: I have one concerning the laws that you referred to us to read: 118. It is illegal for slaves to touch or handle legal documents. We do know that luma (I think that was her name) when she was a slave handled Bosks' records! And also why would there be slave Scribes if they cannot handle legal documents?
[18:00] janette Inglewood: Roi?
[18:00] janette Inglewood: yes well....this is a law extrapolated from the books by Luther
[18:01] Roi Bingyi grins ... "He missed on that one"
[18:01] janette Inglewood: Norman does contradict Himself
[18:01] Roi Bingyi: True
[18:02] janette Inglewood: i can only assume that a slave who is trusted can be given the role of handling documents of a certain level of legality
[18:02] Roi Bingyi: Agreed
[18:02] janette Inglewood: of course.....city lists are legal docs really...and loads of scribe slaves handle those
[18:03] Wanaki Anton: nods
[18:03] janette Inglewood: alright then....thank You very much for attending and contributing
[18:03] janette Inglewood: a small but select group
[18:03] Wicked Vintner: and thank you lady
[18:03] Wanaki Anton: smiles , thank you lady for your time
[18:03] Roi Bingyi: Any assignments for next week?
[18:03] janette Inglewood: advocates tomorrow at 1pm
[18:04] janette Inglewood: no..there will be homework from next class though
[18:04] Devon Slacker: again a transcript will be sent right?
[18:04] janette Inglewood: yes it will
[18:04] Devon Slacker: ok great
[18:04] Roi Bingyi: Thank you, Lady Janette
[18:05] janette Inglewood: thank You all see you next week or tomorrow
[18:05] Wicked Vintner: tomorrow it is
[18:05] Wanaki Anton: nods
[18:05] Wanaki Anton: hope to come tomorrow
[18:05] Devon Slacker: Be well
[18:05] janette Inglewood: be well all
[18:05] Roi Bingyi: Be Well All
[18:05] Wanaki Anton: be well
[18:06] Wicked Vintner: I wish you well Ladies
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