2010-12-20 22:09:43 note card
Meeting Summary: Magistrates Course - Class 2 (OOC/IC Distinction)
Instructor: Janette Inglewood
Participants:
Hazzard Ruby
Jethro Button
Carin McBride
Kandyl Ghoststar
Lacey Arentire
Stefania Wildrose
Syd Cicerone
Claudette Debruyere
Georgia Beorn
Tommy273 Beresford
Loki Greymoon (joined late)
Carissima Denver (joined late)
Meeting Summary:
Janette Inglewood opened the second class of the Magistrates course, discussing a potential class break for the following week due to holidays, but ultimately deciding to proceed as scheduled.
The main topic for this session was the "thorny issue" of OOC (Out Of Character) vs. IC (In Character) distinctions, especially as they apply to Second Life (SL) Gor roleplay and legal proceedings.
Key Concepts and Discussions:
Laws are IC, Rules are OOC: Janette explained that Gorean laws are IC and are handled by Magistrates, while sim (simulation) rules are OOC and managed by moderators. She noted that in Olni, she acts as both, allowing her to handle issues more comprehensively.
Excluding OOC Matters in Legal Proceedings: It was emphasized that all OOC information is inadmissible in IC court and Gorean law.
Examples of OOC Elements: Participants identified various OOC elements:
Group and meter tags
Profile information
Unloaded gowns/veils (SL glitches)
Radar/mini-map
SL glitches and personal drama
Instant Message (IM) information
Real-life (RL) personality conflicts spilling into IC actions (e.g., a warrior collaring a Free Woman due to personal dislike)
Player names
Gathering IC Information: The best way to gather information for a case is through IC means, primarily witness testimony.
Personal Drama and "Grudge Aspect": Janette highlighted that personal drama is the most difficult OOC element to weed out. She noted that spurned lovers or OOC grudges can lead to "daft RP revenge" and attempts to create IC "disobedience issues" from OOC refusals (e.g., a slave refusing to go to voice chat, then accused of IC disobedience). She stated that strong sim leadership and moderators should handle such OOC rule breaks, often through bans.
"RP Limits" in Profiles: The class discussed profile information or "RP limits" written as IC stipulations (e.g., "slave cannot be punished"). Janette clarified that these are OOC and would not be considered in an IC trial. The sim's rules and IC laws are what count. If a player has restrictions (like "don't whip me"), it indicates they are in the wrong place for Gorean roleplay.
Case Example: Pirate Robbery and Warrants: The discussion moved to a scenario where a victim reports a robbery by "Bill Pirate." Janette stressed the need for IC evidence before issuing a warrant:
How is the pirate's name known (not just a tag)?
Was the pirate identity confirmed IC (e.g., by words, attire)?
Were there witnesses?
Where and when did the crime occur (jurisdiction)?
Acting on OOC information destroys the roleplay.
Role of Advocates vs. Magistrates: A participant asked if investigation was solely for Advocates. Janette clarified that while Advocates do research, Magistrates, especially those "first on the scene," often need to gather initial IC information quickly to avoid losing witnesses or evidence, even if they later assign it to an investigation.
Pictures/Sketches as Evidence: Janette introduced a controversial point: she allows pictures of events as a "guide," not direct evidence. A victim could make an IC sketch to depict the criminal's features or the scene's layout, requiring common sense in interpretation.
Handling Witnesses: Janette emphasized the importance of treating witnesses well, involving them, and ensuring they feel safe.
The class concluded with thanks and a reminder about the Advocates class the following day and the next Magistrates class the following week.
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[13:03] janette Inglewood: Tal Everyone........as usual the class is a safe zone....so in the interests of lag You can remove meters
[13:04] janette Inglewood: Welcome to class 2 of the Magistrates course
[13:04] Hazzard Ruby smiles
[13:04] janette Inglewood: missing about 3 due to holidays
[13:05] Jethro Button: Sorry for missing the first
[13:05] Hazzard Ruby: Sorry too.
[13:05] janette Inglewood: should we have next week off and resume the monday after?
[13:05] Carin McBride: me three
[13:05] Kandyl Ghoststar: I am sorry aswell
[13:05] lacey Arentire: yes, i too missed the first but sonja gave me notes and i have read through them
[13:05] Stefania Wildrose: Tal all
[13:06] Jethro Button: Next Monday is good
[13:06] janette Inglewood: i, fine with next week
[13:06] Tommy273 Beresford thinks next week will be difficult to attend for a few.
[13:06] Syd Cicerone: Tal Stef....all u missed so far is to remover meeter
[13:06] janette Inglewood: so class as normal then?
[13:06] Hazzard Ruby: I can have a weeks break.
[13:06] Hazzard Ruby: Okies.
[13:07] lacey Arentire: i could probably do next week, but if othrs cannot it sounds like a good idea
[13:07] janette Inglewood: right....lets say class is on then
[13:07] Kandyl Ghoststar: i can do next week
[13:07] Claudette Debruyere: OK
[13:07] Hazzard Ruby: Hands up for next week off?
[13:07] Hazzard Ruby: @
[13:07] Tommy273 Beresford smiles.
[13:08] Stefania Wildrose: next monday, i think i can too
[13:08] Claudette Debruyere: @
[13:08] Carin McBride: I can for sure
[13:08] Georgia Beorn: i can
[13:08] Syd Cicerone: I can
[13:08] Jethro Button: I can
[13:08] janette Inglewood: yes.....i think we shall have it
[13:08] Claudette Debruyere: I can
[13:08] Tommy273 Beresford nods...me too
[13:08] janette Inglewood: christmas will be over
[13:08] Hazzard Ruby: I can make it if needs be too.
[13:09] janette Inglewood: right then...to business
[13:09] Hazzard Ruby: brb
[13:09] janette Inglewood: today....the thorny issue that is OOC/IC
[13:09] janette Inglewood: OUT OF CHARACTER...IN CHARACTER
[13:10] janette Inglewood: now of cpurse this is entirely sl related
[13:10] Hazzard Ruby: ((Back))
[13:10] janette Inglewood: and can get very complicated
[13:11] janette Inglewood: the way i work it with Cities is to say...Laws are IC and rules are OOC
[13:11] janette Inglewood: rules are dealt with by moderators.......laws by Magistrates
[13:11] janette Inglewood: here in Olni i am also a Mod
[13:12] janette Inglewood: and i write the laws and the rules
[13:12] janette Inglewood: this does mean i can deal with issues by myself.....but when talking legally...we must exclude ALL OOC matters
[13:13] janette Inglewood: can You give me some obvious ooc things that surround us?
[13:13] Claudette Debruyere: @
[13:13] janette Inglewood: Widow?
[13:13] Jethro Button: @
[13:14] Claudette Debruyere: Personality conflicts spilling into IC attacks. For example the warrior doesn't like the Free Woman so he collars her
[13:14] janette Inglewood: yes
[13:14] janette Inglewood: Jethro?
[13:14] Jethro Button: group and meter tags
[13:14] janette Inglewood: yes
[13:14] lacey Arentire: @
[13:14] Syd Cicerone: profile info
[13:15] janette Inglewood: Lacey?
[13:15] lacey Arentire: unloaded gowns (sl hates me )
[13:15] Jethro Button: @
[13:15] Tommy273 Beresford: All IM's
[13:15] Carin McBride grins softly
[13:15] janette Inglewood: yes and veils of course
[13:16] Jethro Button: radar, mini-map etc
[13:16] janette Inglewood: yes Jethro
[13:16] janette Inglewood: and of course names
[13:17] janette Inglewood: so...group tags meter tags name tags profiles groups
[13:17] janette Inglewood: sl glitches and personal drama
[13:17] janette Inglewood: and IM information
[13:17] janette Inglewood: all of them OOC,,,,,well done
[13:18] janette Inglewood: mapping tends to be more a raid thing....but equally ooc
[13:18] janette Inglewood: all of these are inadmissable in terms of court and ic gorean laws
[13:18] Hazzard Ruby: I have seen In Character Maps.
[13:19] janette Inglewood: the info has to be gathered in an ic manner
[13:19] Hazzard Ruby: Yes.
[13:19] janette Inglewood: the best wy for that is usally witness testimnoy
[13:20] janette Inglewood: and the worst one to weed out is the personal drama.......grudge aspect
[13:20] janette Inglewood: it is of course just poor rp and not worthy of everyone's time
[13:21] janette Inglewood: it doesnt always mean that a case cannot go forward, but it will cloud the entire rp
[13:22] janette Inglewood: and the biggest cause of such ooc drama is of course the relationship between Men and Women
[13:22] Jethro Button chuckles
[13:22] Carin McBride smirsk "we wondre why"
[13:22] janette Inglewood: the spurned lover coming up with some daft rp revenge
[13:22] Stefania Wildrose smiles
[13:22] Hazzard Ruby: One problem I have is detecting clever RP and distinguishing it from someone being a muppet.
[13:23] Hazzard Ruby: Sorry @
[13:23] janette Inglewood: yes Hazzard...it gets very tricky
[13:23] Jethro Button nods sagely
[13:23] janette Inglewood: now i have lived in Olni for over an Earth year...and i know most people...and with whom they have had affairs
[13:24] Tommy273 Beresford smiles...
[13:24] janette Inglewood: consequently i have a chance of spotting it
[13:24] janette Inglewood: but still it is a real challenge
[13:24] janette Inglewood: being a Mod also...i can turn it into a rules issue if i need to
[13:25] janette Inglewood: griefing slaves to voice and cam for example
[13:25] Claudette Debruyere: @
[13:25] janette Inglewood: they refuse, next thing we have some so called ic disobedience issue
[13:26] janette Inglewood: yes Widow?
[13:26] Claudette Debruyere: What's that mean 'friefing slaves to voice'?
[13:26] Claudette Debruyere: griefing
[13:26] janette Inglewood: hassling girls to go to voice...usually sexually
[13:26] Loki Greymoon: smiles remembering
[13:26] Claudette Debruyere: Ahh
[13:26] Hazzard Ruby: Ugh.
[13:26] Stefania Wildrose: @
[13:27] janette Inglewood: Stefania?
[13:27] Claudette Debruyere: @
[13:27] Stefania Wildrose: isn't voice related to personal rl
[13:27] janette Inglewood: exactly
[13:27] Kandyl Ghoststar: @
[13:27] Stefania Wildrose: how can they oblige
[13:28] janette Inglewood: it is a rules break...not a gorean law issue
[13:28] Stefania Wildrose: yes
[13:28] Carin McBride: @
[13:28] janette Inglewood: but....there can then be a so called legal claim made...out of spite at thr refusal
[13:28] janette Inglewood: Widow?
[13:29] Claudette Debruyere: Along that line blurring RL into SLife, rules versus law, how do you moderate that or is that at a later class?
[13:30] janette Inglewood: we are dealing with t now
[13:30] Claudette Debruyere: @
[13:30] janette Inglewood: Kandyl?
[13:30] Kandyl Ghoststar: wouldnt griefing like that not be gorean and also be against SL TOS?
[13:30] Claudette Debruyere: what Kandyl said
[13:30] janette Inglewood: yes....ummm im not raising it to debate how we deal with it...more as an example of what goes on
[13:31] janette Inglewood: Carin?
[13:32] Carin McBride: well it was more an answer to why the voice could be an issue for Us, IC.. when the girl says no the man at timestakes it out on the girl in rp, this leads to issues maybe from the girls owner and so on That is how I see the issue will infect Us
[13:32] janette Inglewood: exactly
[13:32] Claudette Debruyere: @
[13:32] janette Inglewood: knowing it is a rules...and a Linden rule break........they can turn it into a revengeful legal issue
[13:33] Hazzard Ruby: To me that is weakness in a Master.
[13:33] Stefania Wildrose nods
[13:33] janette Inglewood: as i say....im a Mod...and i ban the person...end of story
[13:33] janette Inglewood: Widow?
[13:33] Claudette Debruyere: Ah, you answered my question
[13:34] janette Inglewood: yes....it is up to strong sim leadership...in a rules sense to stop such nonsense...and i agree with all comments
[13:34] janette Inglewood: but we see it then get moved into rp....and this is my main point
[13:35] Hazzard Ruby: @
[13:35] janette Inglewood: of course any Free can punish any slave....for anything
[13:35] janette Inglewood: but it must be IC reasons
[13:35] janette Inglewood: Hazzard?
[13:35] Carin McBride nods in agreement
[13:35] Stefania Wildrose nods
[13:35] Syd Cicerone: @
[13:36] Hazzard Ruby: I wonder are there any basic RP courses......I see many not getting evenbasic concepts.
[13:36] Jethro Button: GUS has them
[13:37] janette Inglewood: personally i am very wary of rp courses....its hard to really define what is right or wrong......the main thing to do is read the rules....if they are being broken...report it
[13:37] janette Inglewood: Syd?
[13:37] Hazzard Ruby: kk
[13:37] Syd Cicerone: How do you handle "RP Limits" written in character in the pics section that stipulate that "slave can not be punished" ect. Would that be considered OOC cause it's in the profile....or IC because it could be theoreticly carried in slave papers?
[13:37] janette Inglewood: its ooc
[13:37] Claudette Debruyere: laughs
[13:38] Carin McBride: @
[13:38] janette Inglewood: i would not consider it in an ic trial in any way
[13:38] Syd Cicerone: k
[13:38] janette Inglewood: the rules of the sim...and the laws, they are what counts
[13:39] janette Inglewood: if someone tp's out of a scene because it gets sick....and i mean underage stuff for example....
[13:39] janette Inglewood: then of course they are supported by the sim
[13:39] janette Inglewood: and hopefully they send a log to the Mods for that
[13:40] janette Inglewood: if their retriction..is im a slave dont whip me...then they are in the wrong place and i would suggest they go elsewhere
[13:40] janette Inglewood: Carin?
[13:41] Carin McBride: meny cities have started to write down some of this silly limits .. just stating if you have this and this, we wont accept the limit due to it being ungorean
[13:42] janette Inglewood: yes....that may be a good way to go
[13:42] janette Inglewood: but good city rules cover it anyway
[13:42] Carin McBride nods
[13:42] janette Inglewood: now lets say there is a robbery
[13:43] janette Inglewood: a pirate......robs someone and flees
[13:43] janette Inglewood: the victim comes to us and says....bill pirate robbed me
[13:43] janette Inglewood: heres is the log
[13:44] janette Inglewood: what must we consider if we wish to issue a warrant?
[13:44] Jethro Button: @
[13:44] Hazzard Ruby: @
[13:44] Claudette Debruyere: @
[13:44] Jethro Button: City law limits
[13:44] janette Inglewood: Jethro?
[13:44] janette Inglewood: Hazzard?
[13:45] Carin McBride: @
[13:45] Hazzard Ruby: I am thinking the extent of IC info Known.....how does he know its bill the pirate?
[13:45] janette Inglewood: exactly
[13:46] Kandyl Ghoststar: @
[13:46] janette Inglewood: Widow?
[13:46] Claudette Debruyere: He's a pirate isn't that what they do?
[13:46] janette Inglewood: Carin?
[13:46] Carin McBride grins
[13:47] Stefania Wildrose smiles nodding
[13:47] Carin McBride: well like Hazzard said.. get IC infomation and not a NC, have them tell what happend give a description of the man and so on
[13:47] janette Inglewood: Kandyl?
[13:47] Kandyl Ghoststar: what time the crime happened and if any witnesses were present at that time
[13:47] janette Inglewood: yes...all correct
[13:48] janette Inglewood: so..firstly....how do You know He is called Bill...tag?
[13:48] Hazzard Ruby: @
[13:48] janette Inglewood: then a pirate...tag alos?
[13:48] janette Inglewood: or did he say har har yo hoo hoo i be apirate called bill and i be robbin ya
[13:49] Carin McBride grins
[13:49] Loki Greymoon: palms face
[13:49] Stefania Wildrose laughs
[13:49] janette Inglewood: maybe he wore a pirate hat
[13:49] Kandyl Ghoststar laughs
[13:49] janette Inglewood: and yes...any witnesses?
[13:49] Jethro Button: circumstantial...
[13:49] janette Inglewood: was ther a ship?
[13:49] Kandyl Ghoststar: @
[13:50] janette Inglewood: then...where and when,,,what JURISDICTION...may apply
[13:50] Kandyl Ghoststar: ahh answered my question
[13:50] Stefania Wildrose: @
[13:50] janette Inglewood: all issues to be resolved straight away
[13:50] Carin McBride: ohh good point
[13:50] Jethro Button nods
[13:51] janette Inglewood: of course the victim wants instant response....but act on ooc information and You have destroyed the rp
[13:51] Kandyl Ghoststar: @
[13:51] janette Inglewood: ummi lost track of questions there
[13:51] janette Inglewood: Hazzard?
[13:53] Hazzard Ruby: I was going to ask about City limits issue but I guess thats about where the crime happened.
[13:53] janette Inglewood: yes
[13:53] janette Inglewood: Kandyl?
[13:53] Claudette Debruyere: @
[13:53] Kandyl Ghoststar: without all the relevant information the log can just be classed as OOC
[13:53] janette Inglewood: quite possibly yes
[13:54] janette Inglewood: Stefania?
[13:54] Stefania Wildrose: in a word, before accepting the case we must do investigate on it on IC bases
[13:54] janette Inglewood: correct
[13:54] janette Inglewood: Widow?
[13:55] Claudette Debruyere: I take the advocate class tomorrow and I was under the impression that the research and finding out background was up to the Advocate, not the Magistrate. Am I wrong?
[13:55] Hazzard Ruby: *laughs at "in a word"
[13:55] janette Inglewood: well it depends if there are any olnine....to be honest it is first on the scene normqlly
[13:55] Stefania Wildrose smiles at his laughs
[13:56] janette Inglewood: id prefer to assign it at once to investigation...yes
[13:56] Claudette Debruyere: This is all information you as a Magistrate will already have if the Advocate did their job
[13:56] Stefania Wildrose nods
[13:56] janette Inglewood: being a snooty High Magistrate id prefer it not to be me
[13:56] janette Inglewood laughs
[13:56] Claudette Debruyere: Alright
[13:57] Stefania Wildrose smiles
[13:57] janette Inglewood: however it needs to be dealt with quickly in the first instance,, before we lose the witnesses
[13:57] Loki Greymoon: chuckle snooty
[13:57] janette Inglewood: now one point before we have to close
[13:58] janette Inglewood: and this is controversial.........
[13:58] janette Inglewood: to some degree....i allow a picture of the event
[13:58] janette Inglewood: it may be that the victim could make a sketch
[13:59] janette Inglewood: some major feature of the criminal....the layout at the scene
[13:59] janette Inglewood: you have to use common sense about what is possible
[13:59] janette Inglewood: but i dont immediately call it ooc
[14:00] Hazzard Ruby: Makes sense.
[14:00] janette Inglewood: i dont use it as evidence exactly either....but i can be a guide
[14:00] Jethro Button: @
[14:00] janette Inglewood: Jethro?
[14:00] Jethro Button: One should not intimidate witnesses into clamming up
[14:01] Jethro Button: But disallow elements of their evidence
[14:01] janette Inglewood: how You handle witnesses is very important indeed......and we will do a class on investigating/reporting later
[14:01] Hazzard Ruby: *smiles
[14:01] janette Inglewood: they really need to be involved and well treated
[14:02] janette Inglewood: and of course feel safe
[14:02] janette Inglewood: so yes....good point
[14:02] Hazzard Ruby: You might need to ask questions to get info into IC.
[14:02] janette Inglewood: but the whole picture thing requires common sense mainly......what could be disclosed by a sketch
[14:03] janette Inglewood: well...the time has flown by.....excellent debate everyone
[14:03] janette Inglewood: any last questions?
[14:03] Carin McBride: I have one but its off topic
[14:03] Hazzard Ruby: Nope.
[14:03] Jethro Button: Thank you Lady Janette
[14:03] Hazzard Ruby: TYVM.
[14:04] Claudette Debruyere: Thank you lady Janette
[14:04] Georgia Beorn shakes her head
[14:04] Georgia Beorn: no thank you Lady JAn
[14:04] Stefania Wildrose: No, thank you, Lady Janette
[14:04] Kandyl Ghoststar: Thank you for a great class Lady Janette
[14:04] janette Inglewood: my pleasure....now then...class next week same place same time.....
[14:04] Tommy273 Beresford: Thank you again Lady Jan
[14:04] lacey Arentire: thank yo lady aneet
[14:04] janette Inglewood (OOC): merry christmas everybody
[14:04] Carin McBride: thank you Lady Janette, I am looking forward for tomorrow for next class with you *smiles*
[14:04] Carissima Denver: Take care Lady Jan *smiles*
[14:05] Claudette Debruyere: Yes! Merry Christmas!
[14:05] Jethro Button OOC : You too
[14:05] Claudette Debruyere: waves
[14:05] Stefania Wildrose: I am too
[14:05] Jethro Button OOC : loved the Willow trial too, Janette
[14:05] janette Inglewood: yes advocates tomorrow...the first trial
[14:05] Stefania Wildrose: yes... smiling
[14:05] janette Inglewood: thank You
[14:06] Stefania Wildrose: safe paths
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