2010-12-21 02:02:16 note card
Meeting Summary: Magistrate Course - Class 2 (OOC/IC Conduct)
Instructor: Janette Inglewood (High Magistrate of Olni, Chief Magistrate of the Legal Academy of Gor, Moderator of Olni and the Blue Caste of Gor)
Participants:
Jessie Sinister
Sherman Easterwood
Candaris Randt
amira Deir
Kati Evans
Syd Cicerone (joined later)
Meeting Summary:
Janette Inglewood conducted "Class 2" of the Magistrate course, focusing on the "tricky subject" of OOC (Out Of Character) vs. IC (In Character) conduct within Gorean roleplay. She emphasized that OOC is governed by sim rules, while IC is governed by Gorean law, noting that the two often become confused.
Key Discussion Points:
Defining OOC Information: Participants identified various types of OOC information that cannot be used IC in law or RP: personal attacks/name-calling in IMs, bringing real-life aspects into public forums, using profile/picks/group tags/meter labels, and revealing alts (alternate characters).
Impact of OOC Motives: Janette highlighted the difficulty of dealing with personal vendettas (OOC motives) being dragged into IC cases, especially when it involves power dynamics over slaves (e.g., a free person punishing a slave ICly due to OOC disputes). She noted that it's hard to prove such motives, as the slave might be scared or reluctant to report.
Handling Suspected OOC Motives:
Janette personally asks people OOCly if there's anything she should know if she suspects OOC motives.
If a Magistrate is not a "mod" (moderator), they should report suspected OOC motives to a mod.
Janette stated she is likely to invalidate or "declare as a waste of time" cases with suspected OOC motives.
Appeals against such decisions are possible.
Case Study: Warrant Issuance for a Pirate:
Janette presented a hypothetical scenario: a citizen requests a warrant for a pirate (Jim) who robbed them.
Key considerations for a Magistrate before issuing a warrant:
Where did the robbery occur (jurisdiction)?
How does the citizen know the pirate's name and identity (evidence)?
Were there witnesses?
Janette clarified that IC evidence is crucial; OOC information (like knowing a player's alt) is inadmissible. Photos can be used as "identikit pictures" but not direct evidence of a crime.
The case of "Rika the pirate" was used as an example where the evidence was slowly gathered, and the pirate was eventually captured and impaled in Vonda.
IMs and Alts:
All IMs are OOC and inadmissible as evidence in a trial. Sharing IMs without consent is a breach of Linden TOS.
Disclosure of alts: If players have multiple characters, they should disclose them on the city app. It's a breach of sim rules to have multiple alts in the same RP, and a breach of Linden rules for others to "out" someone's alt publicly. Janette advises a "quiet word" with the offender.
Meeting Conclusion:
Janette concluded the class, emphasizing that OOC conduct is a topic they will revisit. She thanked everyone for their input and listening, wishing them a happy Christmas (OOCly) and confirming the class would resume at the same time next week, or tomorrow for the Advocates class.
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[17:04] janette Inglewood: welcome to the late class
[17:04] Jessie Sinister: Ty
[17:04] Sherman Easterwood: thank youo
[17:04] janette Inglewood: this is class 2 for the Magistrate course
[17:04] janette Inglewood: it is my intention to hold class next week
[17:04] janette Inglewood: the earlier group seemed keen enough
[17:04] janette Inglewood: after all christams is on the weekend
[17:05] Sherman Easterwood: nods, I have no problem with next week
[17:05] janette Inglewood: splendid
[17:05] Candaris Randt: next week is great
[17:05] amira Deir: that is a good time for me also Lady
[17:05] janette Inglewood: excellent
[17:06] janette Inglewood: right then...today, the tricky subject of ooc/ic
[17:06] janette Inglewood: ooc out of character...ic in character
[17:07] janette Inglewood: ooc is governed by sim rules
[17:07] janette Inglewood: ic by gorean law
[17:07] janette Inglewood: now sadly the 2 get very confused
[17:07] Sherman Easterwood: I see that happen many times
[17:07] janette Inglewood: here in Olni i am a moderator as well as a Magistrate
[17:08] janette Inglewood: therefore i can deal with both equally....which is handy
[17:08] janette Inglewood: but never get the 2 mixed up....or mixed in
[17:08] janette Inglewood: it spoils a good rp case
[17:09] janette Inglewood: can anyone tell me obvious ooc things?
[17:09] Sherman Easterwood: @
[17:09] Jessie Sinister: @
[17:09] janette Inglewood: Sherman?
[17:09] Sherman Easterwood: personal attacks and name calling in IMs
[17:09] janette Inglewood: yes
[17:09] janette Inglewood: Jessie?
[17:09] Candaris Randt: @
[17:09] Jessie Sinister: bringing aspects of someone's RL in to the open forum
[17:09] janette Inglewood: yes
[17:10] janette Inglewood: Candaris?
[17:10] amira Deir: @
[17:10] Candaris Randt: Using profile or other information that you did not obtain IC
[17:10] Candaris Randt: Using profile or other information that you did not obtain IC
[17:10] janette Inglewood: correct
[17:10] Jessie Sinister: @
[17:10] janette Inglewood: Amira?
[17:10] Candaris Randt: ((sry dont know why it double posts sometimes))
[17:11] amira Deir: well i was going to say useing profiles but candaris said it frist
[17:11] janette Inglewood: yes
[17:11] janette Inglewood: the most obvious.....name tag
[17:11] janette Inglewood: group tag
[17:11] janette Inglewood: meter label
[17:11] janette Inglewood: then profile, and picks
[17:11] janette Inglewood: im's
[17:11] janette Inglewood: rl issues...personal issues
[17:12] janette Inglewood: all of them are ooc information, cannot be used ic'ly in law
[17:12] janette Inglewood: indeed, nor in rp
[17:13] janette Inglewood: now i know this isnt gorean btb law....but we really need to consider and examine how it affects us
[17:14] janette Inglewood: the hardest to weed out...is the personal vendetta being dragged into ic
[17:14] janette Inglewood: the example i used earlier was one about slaves girls
[17:14] janette Inglewood: this is sadly common
[17:15] janette Inglewood: a girl refuses to voice or cam with a guy
[17:15] janette Inglewood: presumably in a sexual way
[17:15] janette Inglewood: next thing she is punished ic'ly
[17:15] janette Inglewood: of course.....any Free can punish any slave for any reason
[17:16] janette Inglewood: so....it is very hard to prove
[17:16] janette Inglewood: the girl may be scared to report it......or reluctant at the least
[17:16] janette Inglewood: she may think she will not be supported
[17:17] janette Inglewood: and in some plaves that may be true
[17:17] janette Inglewood: *places
[17:17] janette Inglewood ducks
[17:17] Jessie Sinister: lol
[17:17] janette Inglewood: Tal Kati
[17:18] Jessie Sinister: @
[17:18] Kati Evans: Tal Janette, everyone.
[17:18] janette Inglewood: yes Jessie?
[17:18] Jessie Sinister: in this scenario, one would presume there has been some IM conversation that led up to this...
[17:18] janette Inglewood: yes
[17:19] Jessie Sinister: I presume that no sim requires that IM conversations, even between slaves and free as a matter of RP, if outside certain parameters?
[17:19] janette Inglewood: but the girl may not have the log, all things are possible
[17:19] Jessie Sinister: I see
[17:20] janette Inglewood: and i know some girls are just scared to say anything
[17:20] Candaris Randt: and logs can be altered
[17:20] janette Inglewood: yes
[17:21] janette Inglewood: theres the log so far Kati
[17:21] janette Inglewood: get it?
[17:21] amira Deir: yes
[17:22] Jessie Sinister: yes
[17:22] janette Inglewood: so yes logs can be altered
[17:22] janette Inglewood: anyway...so say the girl is then persecuted IC/ly.....and it ends up with you as an ic case
[17:23] janette Inglewood: it can be very tricky to handle
[17:23] Kati Evans: Yes thanks
[17:23] janette Inglewood: personally.....i always ask people...ooc'ly...if there is anything i should know
[17:24] Jessie Sinister: privately?
[17:24] janette Inglewood: it may not be btb,, but it is a chance for them to talk to me
[17:24] janette Inglewood: yes...in IM
[17:24] Jessie Sinister: ty
[17:24] janette Inglewood: and not just the girl....anyone
[17:24] janette Inglewood: this can work both ways of course
[17:25] janette Inglewood: since i have been in Olni so long...i tend to know who had an affair with whom...chuckles
[17:25] Jessie Sinister laughs
[17:25] janette Inglewood: so i can smell it
[17:26] Jessie Sinister puts on more deodorant
[17:26] janette Inglewood: anyway.....an extreme example, but i hope You get my point.....be wary of ooc motive
[17:26] Sherman Easterwood: @
[17:26] janette Inglewood: Sherman?
[17:27] Sherman Easterwood: If you suspect ooc motive, how do you proceed?
[17:27] janette Inglewood: im quite likely to invalidate the whole case
[17:27] Jessie Sinister: @
[17:27] janette Inglewood: declare it as a waste of time
[17:27] Sherman Easterwood: is that done IC or OOC in IM
[17:28] janette Inglewood: if youre not a mod...report it to a mod
[17:28] janette Inglewood: i do it privately...but optional
[17:28] janette Inglewood: Jessie?
[17:28] Jessie Sinister: I think you answered the question with the comment about Mod
[17:28] Jessie Sinister: I was just curious of they could appeal
[17:28] janette Inglewood: yes they can appeal
[17:29] janette Inglewood: normally a "proper"Assassin contacts me about kill rules
[17:29] janette Inglewood: before a hit in Olni...they also often ask about motive
[17:30] janette Inglewood: any hint of a love tryst for example and the honourable bc pulls out
[17:30] janette Inglewood: and i think this is the way to handle it as a Magistrate too
[17:30] Jessie Sinister nods
[17:31] janette Inglewood: now then..imagine this scenario
[17:31] janette Inglewood: a citizen comes to You and says....."i was just robbed by a pirate called Jim"
[17:31] janette Inglewood: "i want a warrant issued,,,now!"
[17:32] janette Inglewood: what are the first things you have to think about?
[17:32] Sherman Easterwood: @
[17:32] janette Inglewood: Sherman?
[17:32] Sherman Easterwood: Where did the robbery occur?
[17:33] janette Inglewood: yes, what else?
[17:33] Jessie Sinister: @
[17:33] amira Deir: @
[17:33] janette Inglewood: Jessie?
[17:33] Jessie Sinister: how does he know what the pirate's name might be?
[17:33] janette Inglewood: correct
[17:33] janette Inglewood: Amira?
[17:34] amira Deir: what time this robbery happen and what evidcne the person had
[17:34] janette Inglewood: yes
[17:34] janette Inglewood: any more?
[17:34] Sherman Easterwood: @
[17:34] janette Inglewood: Sherman?
[17:34] Sherman Easterwood: to along Jessies line of thought, how did they know he was a pirate
[17:34] janette Inglewood: yes
[17:35] janette Inglewood: i mean did He go...ha har me hearty...you be robbed by pirate Jim ye scurvy dog
[17:35] janette Inglewood: if so...great
[17:35] Jessie Sinister: ((he said ARRRGH, as he ran off))
[17:35] janette Inglewood: chances are he did not
[17:35] Jessie Sinister: @
[17:35] janette Inglewood: so...witnesses is another consideration
[17:36] janette Inglewood: Jessie?
[17:36] Jessie Sinister: I presume the same could be concluded of myself, or anyone in here?
[17:36] janette Inglewood: how do you mean?
[17:36] Jessie Sinister: If I robbed Sherman, all he would really know is it was a man in Scarlet, albeit with an Olni Crest
[17:37] janette Inglewood: yes
[17:37] Jessie Sinister: But, basically, IC'ly, he would only know he was robbed by a man in red, and no other details
[17:37] janette Inglewood: if i saw it...i may be able to identify You
[17:37] janette Inglewood: but if alone...exactly right
[17:37] janette Inglewood: you need to know ic'ly the details
[17:38] janette Inglewood: that reason case of ricka the pirate
[17:38] janette Inglewood: of course i knew who it was...oocly
[17:38] janette Inglewood: *recent
[17:38] janette Inglewood: but..all we really had was His hat
[17:39] janette Inglewood: a witness then descibed Him
[17:39] janette Inglewood: we made picture from that description
[17:39] janette Inglewood: we got a name.....wrong as it goes, but close
[17:39] janette Inglewood: gradually we got the ic evidence
[17:40] janette Inglewood: any slip and the case would be invalid
[17:40] janette Inglewood: then he would have got off
[17:41] janette Inglewood: and believe me, these criminals watch for it closely
[17:41] janette Inglewood: they are experienced and skilled
[17:41] janette Inglewood: now...that is why i will allow a photo to be used
[17:41] janette Inglewood: not directly as evidence
[17:42] janette Inglewood: but within common sense boundaries, as a drawing made from a description
[17:42] janette Inglewood: then put on a poster or warrant
[17:43] janette Inglewood: dont let it be the be all and end all...and say here is a pic of you commiting the crime
[17:43] janette Inglewood: but as a description....an identikit picture if you will
[17:44] janette Inglewood: then i allow it
[17:44] Jessie Sinister nods
[17:44] janette Inglewood: i could understand people arguing with that...its a matter of common sense
[17:45] janette Inglewood: in ricka's case.....the piratey look and distinctive hat...would have been noticed by witnesses
[17:46] janette Inglewood: and for the record...He was captured and impaled in Vonda
[17:46] janette Inglewood: so many other crimes....we didnt even testify
[17:46] Jessie Sinister: dat's gotta hoit
[17:46] janette Inglewood: but they let us know and sent us a "picture" of it
[17:47] janette Inglewood: yes....very unpleasant
[17:47] Jessie Sinister: I've seen one
[17:47] janette Inglewood: any questions?
[17:48] Sherman Easterwood: none from me
[17:48] Jessie Sinister: yse, but, not about anything we have come to so far
[17:48] Jessie Sinister: so, I will wait
[17:48] janette Inglewood: ok...then lets recap...ooc info...tags, Ims....rl and personal issues
[17:48] janette Inglewood: profiles and groups
[17:49] janette Inglewood: now..all IM's are ooc
[17:49] janette Inglewood: again this can be tricky
[17:49] janette Inglewood: an IM saying im going to kill you...is hard to ignore
[17:50] Sherman Easterwood: @
[17:50] janette Inglewood: but it has to be backed up by testimony
[17:50] janette Inglewood: Sherman?
[17:50] Sherman Easterwood: What about the issue of IM's not being able to be shared without conscent of both
[17:50] janette Inglewood: well it has the same effect...it is inadmissable
[17:51] janette Inglewood: so.....we dont ask anyone to share them
[17:51] Sherman Easterwood: nods because IM are OOC and therefore inadmissable in trial, correct?
[17:51] janette Inglewood: technically i think it is a breach of linden tos....as is disclosure of alts
[17:52] janette Inglewood: yes correct
[17:52] Jessie Sinister: @
[17:52] janette Inglewood: it didnt happen in rp
[17:52] janette Inglewood: Jessie?
[17:52] Jessie Sinister: disclosure of alts?
[17:52] janette Inglewood: yes
[17:52] janette Inglewood: i know who somepeoples alts are
[17:53] Jessie Sinister: I don't have one, so, I'm not sure I understand the concept
[17:53] janette Inglewood: it is a breach of terms to declare that
[17:53] janette Inglewood: well...some people have several characters
[17:53] janette Inglewood: not an issue if they are all kept apart
[17:54] janette Inglewood: but....when they are in the same rp...cross alting as it is called
[17:54] Jessie Sinister: so, if someone has an alt, they have to disclose it to ...
[17:54] Jessie Sinister: ahhhh
[17:54] Jessie Sinister: Now, I'm with you.. Thank you
[17:54] janette Inglewood: then it is a breach of sim rules
[17:54] Jessie Sinister: understood
[17:54] janette Inglewood: however for me to announce it in public..is a breach of Linden rules
[17:55] Jessie Sinister: to announce that you have one, or know one?
[17:55] janette Inglewood: so again...a quiet word.....i know what youre doing...stop it or i will ban you is needed
[17:55] janette Inglewood: know one
[17:55] janette Inglewood: we ask on the city app to tell us
[17:56] janette Inglewood: and its no problem if you do
[17:56] Jessie Sinister: yes, I understand it now
[17:56] janette Inglewood: but not both in the same rp
[17:56] janette Inglewood: i dont have one
[17:56] Jessie Sinister: so you basically can't "out" someone in open forum
[17:56] janette Inglewood: Lucy does....very publically
[17:56] janette Inglewood: a spare Lucy....lol
[17:56] Jessie Sinister: ROFL
[17:56] janette Inglewood: yes correct Jessie
[17:57] Jessie Sinister: one Ubara wasn't enough?
[17:57] Jessie Sinister: ;c)
[17:57] janette Inglewood: oh..just to hold groups
[17:57] janette Inglewood: the limit is so low
[17:58] janette Inglewood: right then..our time draws near.....any questions?
[17:58] Jessie Sinister: none from me
[17:58] Sherman Easterwood: none from me
[17:58] Candaris Randt: None here
[17:58] janette Inglewood: this is a topic we will return to
[17:58] Jessie Sinister: Thank you, again, for your time, Lady Jan
[17:59] Sherman Easterwood: thank you Lady for your time
[17:59] Kati Evans: Yes thank you
[17:59] janette Inglewood: my pleasure.....so class, same time next week
[17:59] Candaris Randt: Yes, thank you very much
[17:59] Sherman Easterwood: see you next wekk same time
[17:59] janette Inglewood: in the meantime....=
[17:59] Jessie Sinister: Be Well, All!
[17:59] Kati Evans: Next week?
[17:59] janette Inglewood: /ooc have a great christmas
[17:59] Candaris Randt: ((I hope all that celebrate Christmas have a good one.))
[18:00] janette Inglewood: yes peaceful and festive and fun
[18:00] Kati Evans: I will be out of town on Monday.
[18:00] Sherman Easterwood: ((Everyone enjoy the holiday))
[18:00] Jessie Sinister: ((Merry Christmas and Happy, and SAFE, Holidays to you all))
[18:00] janette Inglewood: alright Kati
[18:00] janette Inglewood: ill publish the log as usual
[18:00] Kati Evans: Thank you.
[18:00] janette Inglewood: be well all and thank You for a good debate
[18:01] Sherman Easterwood: safe paths Lady
[18:01] amira Deir: merry chrismas
[18:01] amira Deir: thank you for the class
[18:01] janette Inglewood: You too Amira
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