2011-03-08 02:10:27 note card
Meeting Summary: Magistrate Course - Week 1 (Jurisdiction)
Instructor: Janette Inglewood
Participants:
Roi Bingyi
KѦNѦ (devon.slacker)
Ant Stenvaag
Michaela Raine (michaela123)
Kati Evans (joined late)
Meeting Summary:
Janette Inglewood kicked off the first class of an 8-week Magistrate course, welcoming participants and outlining the course structure. She mentioned that the course is certificated and well-recognized, with over 50 former students in various roles across Gor. She also introduced herself as a High Magistrate of Olni and a former student of the academy.
The primary topic for Week 1 was jurisdiction and the different types of law on Gor:
Merchant Law: Governs crimes outside a city, and things like weights and measures across Gor.
Initiate Law: Pertains to anything connected to the White Caste or the Priest Kings (an attack on one is an attack on the Caste).
Caste Law: Deals with matters best handled by a Caste head rather than criminal law (e.g., a female Physician without children whose patient dies).
City Law (Civil or Municipal Law): Applies to crimes within a specific city and varies from city to city.
Janette provided several scenarios to illustrate these laws:
An Initiate attacked in a city by mercs: Initiate Law
A female Physician with no children whose patient dies: Caste Law (Physician's Caste)
A Merchant attacked on the road to a neighboring city: Merchant Law
A Merchant robbed while visiting a neighboring city: City Law (of the city where the crime occurred)
The discussion then delved into more complex "blurred" jurisdictional issues, particularly regarding slaves and property disputes:
Stolen Slave Example: Roi Bingyi presented a scenario where a Builder claims his slave, stolen from his city, is now in the current city. Janette stated that if there is proof of ownership and it's within "one Gorean hand" (5 days), she would return the slave but wouldn't send the "taker" for trial in the Builder's city. She emphasized that the current owner, if they bought the slave, might be innocent.
"Five-Day Law": Janette explained this Merchant Law: an owner has one Gorean hand (5 days) to recover stolen property, otherwise it defaults to the new owner.
Slave Testimony: It was noted that slave testimony "may be taken under torture" but is generally not as reliable as a Free Man's word, as slaves are known to lie or get confused. However, in cases of a slave's word vs. a Panther's word, Janette would consider torturing both, depending on her knowledge of the slave's character.
Overlap of Merchant and City Law: The group discussed how, in practice, cases involving merchant law within a city often fall under the jurisdiction of City Magistrates, especially since specific "Merchant Magistrates" are rare in SL Gor.
The class concluded with Janette informing participants that she would send out the class script, her dictionary, and Luther's law list in the group, encouraging them to familiarize themselves with the laws. The next class would be the Advocates class tomorrow, and the next Magistrate class would be the following week.
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[17:01] janette Inglewood: Tal Free...and welcome
[17:02] Roi Bingyi: Tal Jan
[17:02] KѦNѦ (devon.slacker): Tal Teacher
[17:02] janette Inglewood: i am actually missing 3 people from this group
[17:02] janette Inglewood: ah ha here is one
[17:02] janette Inglewood: anyway...let us make a start
[17:04] janette Inglewood: so....this is the first class of an 8 week course for Magistrates
[17:04] janette Inglewood: the same as the 1pm class...which actually has about 10 in......so if you ever need to make the earlier one for any reason...that is fine
[17:05] janette Inglewood: we are immune from raids here....so if it gets laggy..please remove your meters
[17:06] janette Inglewood: and you now see how it works...i send out a call for tp's about 15 mins before we start
[17:07] janette Inglewood: this is a discursive sort of class so please feel free to ask questions
[17:07] janette Inglewood: use the @ symbol for a raised hand
[17:07] janette Inglewood: and i dont copy and paste stuff in...as you will tell from my typos
[17:08] janette Inglewood: there are 8 1 hour classes......and 2 bits of coursework
[17:08] janette Inglewood: the course is certificated at the end...and seems to be well recognised around Gor
[17:09] janette Inglewood: indeed we have over 50 ex students now in roles around Gor
[17:09] janette Inglewood: so....to say it is a valuable course...i think is fair
[17:09] janette Inglewood: a little about me.......
[17:10] janette Inglewood: i qualified from these courses under Anzhela Dyrssen....2 earth years ago
[17:10] janette Inglewood: then started working for her as a Magistrate around Gor...before taking over the academy
[17:11] janette Inglewood: i have been High Magistrate of Olni for more than a year...and also take jobs in various places...or help out ex students
[17:11] janette Inglewood: this doesnt mean i claim to preach law at you
[17:12] janette Inglewood: we are here to work together and learn and interpret what we can from the books and a way of thinking
[17:13] janette Inglewood: i send out a script of each class in the academy group as well as various handouts
[17:13] janette Inglewood: im sure you are all in that group
[17:14] janette Inglewood: so...any questions before we get started?
[17:14] janette Inglewood: alright...excellent
[17:15] janette Inglewood: the first topic to cover is jurisdiction
[17:15] KѦNѦ (devon.slacker): no
[17:15] janette Inglewood: now Norman is pretty clear about how this works
[17:15] janette Inglewood: there are 4 types of law on Gor....can anyone name some of them?
[17:16] Roi Bingyi: @
[17:16] janette Inglewood: Roi?
[17:16] Roi Bingyi: Merchant Law, City Law
[17:16] janette Inglewood: correct
[17:16] Roi Bingyi: :
[17:16] Ant Stenvaag: @
[17:17] janette Inglewood: anyone the other 2?
[17:17] janette Inglewood: Ant?
[17:17] Ant Stenvaag: caste, initiate
[17:17] KѦNѦ (devon.slacker): @
[17:17] janette Inglewood: thats right
[17:18] janette Inglewood: we have merchant Initiate, Caaste and city....also called civil or municipal law
[17:18] janette Inglewood: you were going to say those Devon?
[17:19] janette Inglewood: now......Initiate Law...is anything connected to the white Caste or the Priest Kings
[17:20] janette Inglewood: Caste Law...is a matter that needs to be dealt with by the Caste head rather than criminal law
[17:20] janette Inglewood: Merchant law governs crimes that heppen outside a city....or also things like weights and mearsures across Gor
[17:21] janette Inglewood: and City Law applies to any crime within that City...and of course varies from City to city
[17:21] janette Inglewood: so lets consider a few examples
[17:22] janette Inglewood: which of those laws applies to the following scenarios
[17:22] janette Inglewood: an Initiate is attacked in a City by a group of mercs?
[17:23] Ant Stenvaag: @
[17:23] Roi Bingyi: @
[17:23] janette Inglewood: Ant?
[17:23] Ant Stenvaag: Anything with a white is under Initiate law, I think.
[17:23] janette Inglewood: agree with that Roi?
[17:23] Roi Bingyi: Aye
[17:24] janette Inglewood: yes correct...they see an attack on one as an attack on the Caste
[17:25] janette Inglewood: next one....a female Physician has had no children and a patient she is treating dies?
[17:25] Roi Bingyi: @
[17:25] janette Inglewood: Roi?
[17:25] Roi Bingyi: Caste, Physicans caste has strict rules about that
[17:26] janette Inglewood: correct...a matter for the green Caste head
[17:27] janette Inglewood: next...a Merchant is on the road to a neighbouring City and is attacked on the road?
[17:27] KѦNѦ (devon.slacker): @
[17:27] janette Inglewood: Devon?
[17:27] Michaela Raine (michaela123): @ Merchant Law
[17:27] Michaela Raine (michaela123): oops
[17:28] KѦNѦ (devon.slacker): that is wht i was going to say
[17:28] Roi Bingyi chuckles
[17:28] janette Inglewood: correct as it was not in a city
[17:29] janette Inglewood: next..a Merchant is visiting a neighbouring City and is robbed while He is there?
[17:29] Ant Stenvaag: @
[17:29] janette Inglewood: Ant?
[17:29] Ant Stenvaag: Law of that City
[17:30] janette Inglewood: exactly...the city law...of where the crime occoured
[17:30] janette Inglewood: now those examples are nice and clear cut....but i am sure you can imagine that it can get a bit blurred
[17:31] Roi Bingyi: @
[17:32] janette Inglewood: Roi?
[17:32] Roi Bingyi: May I cite an example?
[17:32] janette Inglewood: please do
[17:33] Roi Bingyi: A Builder comes into a city and after a couple of hours approaches a Magistrate claiming that a slave was stolen from him and he has spotted her in this city
[17:34] janette Inglewood: yes
[17:35] janette Inglewood: we dont know where the crime may have occoured
[17:35] Roi Bingyi: In the builders city
[17:35] Roi Bingyi: ((He is away from home))
[17:36] janette Inglewood: and assuming He has the papers or she wears His collar to prove that
[17:36] janette Inglewood: then also it depends on when of course
[17:37] janette Inglewood: indeed incidents involving slaves are by far the most common
[17:38] janette Inglewood: so.....is He seeking that the alleged thief is taken to His City for trial?
[17:39] Roi Bingyi: Or just wanting to get his slave back
[17:40] janette Inglewood: certainly my view is that if He has the proof of Ownership and is within 5 days...i would have her returned
[17:40] janette Inglewood: but i wouldnt send the Taker to be tried there
[17:41] Roi Bingyi: The person that has her now may be innocent as he may have bought her from the taker
[17:41] Ant Stenvaag: @
[17:41] janette Inglewood: indeed He may...and that is no crime
[17:41] janette Inglewood: Ant?
[17:41] Ant Stenvaag: What if there is a debate over the number of days?
[17:42] janette Inglewood: well again it is up to the accuser to come up with some proof
[17:42] Ant Stenvaag nods
[17:43] janette Inglewood: that is why it is wise to register all slaves with the City
[17:43] Roi Bingyi: True
[17:43] janette Inglewood: i know Men can find it tedious...but it is for their own good actually
[17:43] Roi Bingyi: My opinion is that this would be covered under Merchant Law as it invovles property
[17:43] Ant Stenvaag: Ownership is easier to prove than time gone.
[17:44] Kati Evans: Had ro convince slavers of that at times.
[17:44] janette Inglewood: well it would in regard to the 5 day law and the proof of ownership yes
[17:44] Roi Bingyi laughs
[17:45] janette Inglewood: so yes Roi a great example of how jurisdiction gets blurred
[17:45] KѦNѦ (devon.slacker): @
[17:45] janette Inglewood: and in the end one has to use common snese combned with the law as we know it
[17:46] janette Inglewood: Devon?
[17:46] KѦNѦ (devon.slacker): can you explain the 5 day law
[17:46] janette Inglewood: yes....the Owner of a slave has one Gorean hand to recover His property
[17:46] janette Inglewood: else they default to the new Owner
[17:47] KѦNѦ (devon.slacker): ok thank you
[17:47] janette Inglewood: we will get to specific laws during the course
[17:47] KѦNѦ (devon.slacker): im sure
[17:48] janette Inglewood: and after the class i shall send out in group...Luther's list of laws extrapolated from the books
[17:48] KѦNѦ (devon.slacker): very nice
[17:48] janette Inglewood: that one is a merchant law...recognised by most Cities
[17:48] janette Inglewood: and certainly would come under your jurisdiction
[17:48] KѦNѦ (devon.slacker): thanks
[17:49] janette Inglewood: there is another law that says that testimony of slaves MAY be taken under torture
[17:50] janette Inglewood: if in this example...we asked the slave when she was taken......
[17:50] janette Inglewood: and it went against what the Free had said...i would not be inclined to accept it
[17:51] janette Inglewood: so the argument says....if she is tortured and stands by it...then it has some creedence
[17:51] janette Inglewood: but we all know slaves lie....or get easily confused
[17:51] janette Inglewood: so it is rare that i take their word over that of a Free Man
[17:52] KѦNѦ (devon.slacker): @
[17:52] janette Inglewood: another factor that could affect jurisdiction...and whether one recognises a crime committed in another City is whether they are allies
[17:53] janette Inglewood: Devon?
[17:53] KѦNѦ (devon.slacker): what about a slave V.s a Panthers word
[17:53] janette Inglewood: hmmm....id tend to have both tortured
[17:54] Roi Bingyi: Agreed
[17:54] KѦNѦ (devon.slacker): ok
[17:54] janette Inglewood: the slave ...just......but it would really depend
[17:54] Michaela Raine (michaela123): nods
[17:55] janette Inglewood: there are slaves here in Olni who i have known a long time....and i know if they are the type to lie
[17:55] Ant Stenvaag: @
[17:55] janette Inglewood: so i would most likely believe them over a panther girl
[17:55] janette Inglewood: Ant?
[17:56] Ant Stenvaag: A question for Roi, perhaps.. I think there is a case that slave disputes fall under merchant law, but who would you refer the matter to for a decision - do you have a strong merchant caste in your city?
[17:57] Roi Bingyi: A Magistrate or Praetor would be the ones to decide such a case
[17:57] janette Inglewood: really it would fall to the city Magistrates
[17:57] janette Inglewood: yes
[17:58] janette Inglewood: the overlap of merchant law in such a case would really enable a city Magistrate to rule on it
[17:58] janette Inglewood: there are not many specific merchant magistrates in sl Gor
[17:58] Ant Stenvaag: So in practical terms, the two are one within a city?
[17:59] janette Inglewood: in practical terms i would agree...yes
[17:59] Ant Stenvaag nods...
[17:59] janette Inglewood: in Olni for example...those issues are included in the city laws
[17:59] Ant Stenvaag: I can see a bunch of infuriated warriors if we refer them to a non existent merchant magistrate.
[17:59] Ant Stenvaag laughs
[18:00] janette Inglewood: thus my Magistrates would be able to have jurisdiction on it
[18:00] Roi Bingyi chuckles
[18:00] janette Inglewood: right time has caught up with us already
[18:00] janette Inglewood: i hope you enjoyed our first class
[18:01] janette Inglewood: and thank you for getting involved in the discussion
[18:01] Roi Bingyi: I did and thank you
[18:01] Ant Stenvaag: Thank you Lady Jan
[18:01] Michaela Raine (michaela123): "smiles" thank you
[18:01] janette Inglewood: i shall send out the class script...my dictionary and Luthers law list in group in a short while
[18:01] KѦNѦ (devon.slacker): thanks
[18:02] KѦNѦ (devon.slacker): i think i have them?
[18:02] Roi Bingyi: Great
[18:02] janette Inglewood: Advocates class tomorrow at 1pm...othewise see You same time same place next week
[18:02] KѦNѦ (devon.slacker): did you send them after the other class
[18:02] janette Inglewood: yes i did
[18:03] KѦNѦ (devon.slacker): ok i got them, so that is our Home work
[18:03] janette Inglewood: but people miss messages so i dont mind sending them out again
[18:03] janette Inglewood: well yes...try to read as much as you can of them
[18:03] janette Inglewood: no need to learn the laws...just get familiar with them
[18:03] KѦNѦ (devon.slacker): yes sometimes i do
[18:03] KѦNѦ (devon.slacker): ok
[18:04] janette Inglewood: alright..thank You all and be well
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